Curse

Athrun Feya · Jan 16, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Not to point out that FoC is dependent on hexes, Esurge dependent on energy pools, and RoJ having a very small AoE where it hits.

FoC - Dependant on hexes.... sounds familiar.
E Surge - Depends on energy pools, lucky everything in Hard Mode has rediculous amounts.From experience, this is true even with spikes and a large number of people using the skill in a single party.
RoJ - True, but when enemies are hugging a single tank is a viable alternative. Most AoE spikes are cleaned up by EoE.

There are other skills that vary for each area - Wandering Eye is practically unconditional in The Deep and desecrate enchantments is great for Dervish heavy places.

None of these will replace Cry of Pain exactly, but they are close enough to still allow teams to complete elite areas as they are doing currently.

Tyla · Jan 16, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

It was only a matter of time before this turned into a Cryway flame and defense thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoever said this

Tyla, a quick comment. Isn't it slightly hypocritical to say that the 'posh' age of britain (said as an insult) is over when u said earlier u no longer play the game but want to improve it for others because you care? how terribly....noble...

Posh as in the stereotypical version, "duck" and all that shit. Can't say I know that history, but it probably happened.

What's that got to do with having faith in the developers anyway?

[DE] · Jan 16, 2009, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

FoC - Dependant on hexes.... sounds familiar.
E Surge - Depends on energy pools, lucky everything in Hard Mode has rediculous amounts.
RoJ - True, but when enemies are hugging a single tank is a viable alternative.

Don't forget that CoP has a 1/4 second cast time, in comparison to these.

FoC is adjacent only with a 2 second cast time meaning you must tightly and effectively group enemies with your tank. Good, yes, but not imbalanced.

As far as Esurge goes, not every enemy in Hard Mode has a 100 energy pool, allowing for a full quick spike; it also has a 2 second cast time but assuming you're using mesmers it shouldn't make to much of a difference.

RoJ can be nearly as good as CoP if you have a tank that can group every enemy very tight, but once it's fixed to be recognized as AoE it won't be viable at all.

[DE] · Jan 16, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Channel_V93

Cast time is just gonna make it a bit slower, for Esurge if you have brains just pick different targets and RoJ isn't fixed right now so why bother saying that.

Also, my post was deleted for no reason, smart move there I think it promotes smart discussions.

Each mesmer gets two casts of Esurge before waiting for it to recharge (assuming you're using arcane echo). For CoP that's more than enough; for Esurge and FoC, maybe not so much. You're correct in saying RoJ isn't fixed right now but the AoE range is still to small and the damage to spread out for it to be compared to CoP; not to mention it's inevitable that it will get fixed.

Lord Sojar · Jan 16, 2009, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Don't all PvE Inbalance threads eventually devolve into people flaming and defending popular PvE "builds"? Note I use "" when noting PvE builds, because they are simply a collection of overpowered skill bars that really don't have any synergy except for the synergy of being horribly overpowered and massacring mobs in short order...

Example is the common UW clearing group, consisting not of anything remotely balanced, but Perma Shadow Form sins. Those yuppies think they are actually skilled at the game for using said build? I mean really now... it is a flattering thought to fancy yourself good at the game, but... they are running 6+ of the same build to clear an area! This game was built around the idea that a single class is not able to function on its own in every single area; the perma SF sin breaks this concept like a an 8th Dynasty Ming vase in an Indiana Jones movie.

The fact is, when you have a team build that focuses around a single skill able to destroy level 30+ monsters, something is WRONG. There is no skill like that in PvP... none. If there are, they are nerfed. Think back to Spirtual Pain spike, arguably one of the most horrendous and powerful spikes ever to grace the game. It was nerfed into oblivion... Yes, PvE is a bit a different, but it should not be treated so different that the logic is twisted into the reverse of PvP's. This is why there is a rift between PvE and PvP players, to be quite honest.

fenix · Jan 16, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

The main issue with using Esurge/FoC is that the cast times will mean that any monster with an interrupt with easily hit something, therefore making the strength of the spike far lower than CoP spikes. If CoP were nerfed properly, there is not an alternative that will work as well, because CoP is so easy. And RoJ, well that's just dumb, and everyone knows it.

Channel_V93 · Jan 16, 2009, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

The main issue with using Esurge/FoC is that the cast times will mean that any monster with an interrupt with easily hit something, therefore making the strength of the spike far lower than CoP spikes. If CoP were nerfed properly, there is not an alternative that will work as well, because CoP is so easy. And RoJ, well that's just dumb, and everyone knows it.

I don't see enemies interrupting Deep Freeze or Vision Regret or Ether Nightmare even Energy Surge when we DoA, why would FoC be any different?

Improvavel · Jan 16, 2009, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Yes, PvE is a bit a different, but it should not be treated so different that the logic is twisted into the reverse of PvP's. This is why there is a rift between PvE and PvP players, to be quite honest.

I know very well that the skill needed, both the level of skill and the type of skill required, for PvP is in a complete different level and, that a good PvP player will be a great PvE player, while the opposite won't always (or even most of the time) be true.

With that said, let me remind the shift it was introduced in GvG when the NPCs received a boost in damage, like a year or year and so ago.

The rangers NPCs were able to do 1xx+ (don't recall the exact numbers) damage power shots at VoD. Let me say again, 1xx damage at VoD. This caused teams to start "farming" them. They used skills like dolyak signet and vengeful was khanhei. Any PvE player that at that time, or at this time, use those skills was and will be called noob, not without reason.

A PvE monster that deals 1xx damage is a mild annoyance, nothing more.

Don't forget the complete idiotic environmental effects, like Repressive Energy and Shroud of Darkness, just to name a few, or the absurdly overpowered MONSTER-ONLY SKILLS.

With that said, yes Shadow form and any dedicated tank is utter crap and CoP is overpowered.

But when in the same thread, you mix those, with necromancer heroes and SY! (extremely powerful, especially if you have PvP levels of offense, but not as overpowered when you consider mobs that can easily do upwards of 300 damage), that allow either for an adequate defense (maybe slightly more than just adequate) in the hardest areas of the game or just the ability to do play with 2 players + 6 heroes, its bond to cause people to scream elitism.

kostolomac · Jan 16, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

The fact is, when you have a team build that focuses around a single skill able to destroy level 30+ monsters, something is WRONG. There is no skill like that in PvP... none. If there are, they are nerfed.

But in pvp you won't be hit for 200 damage from a normal spell on a regular basis. Caster monsters' auto attack damage is equal to that of a auto attacking warrior in pvp. Or fight someone with over 1k health or almost undrainable energy. PvP and PvE are very different.

I consider SFtank+CoP nukers to be holy trinity 2.0 , improved but still not threatening. I think that pugs would reach the 20 minute mark in an elite area only if the number of enemies are halved

Those low times aren't made by pugs , they are made by guild groups or people that have a history of playing together.

Vazze · Jan 16, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Overpowered PvE skills are baed, they should not have been added in the first place. But I have two things to say. First, it is a trend in the game that skills gets stronger, you can do things faster and easier. It is completely normal, it helps to keep people going on, players new to the game can catch up easier and most importantly: it was selling the new chapters! Two, the way I see it only a few teams are actually running uber builds .... most of the players are GETTING RUN by permas and 600/smiters in missions, dungeons, elite areas. So a PvE skill balance might have limited impact on the community, or worse, it would encourage content running.

Wild Karrde · Jan 17, 2009, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Here is a thought... If gimick builds like cryway or Perma SF or any PvE only skills dont exist in PvP.(where your tactical thinking and reaction and experience prevail.) because they are way overpowered....why should they be allowed in PvE against a AI that is MUCH dumber than human players and have no tactical thinking?

If PvP can exist without it... PvE certainly should be able to considering is a retarded AI your fighting.... and dont bring up the "some skills hit for 200 or more dmg in PvE thats why." well theres a line in the monk called protection prayers... use it.

Improvavel · Jan 17, 2009, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

and dont bring up the "some skills hit for 200 or more dmg in PvE thats why." well theres a line in the monk called protection prayers... use it.

Its not some

Its pretty much all in the places that count

Why shouldn't skills and auto-attacks do 200 damage in PvP? Or you telling me the human monks in both teams can't use a line called protection prayers?

And again, PvP is supposed to be more challenging than PvE.

It seems people want to have some kind of recognition for doing PvE, want to be able to do some areas that no one else can - those areas exist - They are PvP areas. Go play them.

Akolo · Jan 17, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

While Jesusbeam does need to be fixed (have AI recognize it as AoE), it (along with FoC, Esurge, etc) wouldn't be able to get similar times due to Cry of Pain having a much bigger Area of Effect than them.

To test if your theory was right, we decided to go do a deeprun, without pve skills(including Cry of Pain and SY)and Shadow Form whatsoever. We used a spike consisting of FoC, Esurge and RoJ. And this is our result:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/g...uywd/gw427.jpg

I think almost everyone in that team took a screenshot if you want more proof.

I think this is kind of showing that Cry of Pain isnt really needed for a fast time.

Elentari · Jan 17, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

This is the entire build =]
http://gwshack.us/0a5db

kostolomac · Jan 17, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

To test if your theory was right, we decided to go do a deeprun, without pve skills(including Cry of Pain and SY)and Shadow Form whatsoever. We used a spike consisting of FoC, Esurge and RoJ. And this is our result:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/g...uywd/gw427.jpg

I think almost everyone in that team took a screenshot if you want more proof.

I think this is kind of showing that Cry of Pain isnt really needed for a fast time.

That's very impressive , congratulations

[DE] · Jan 17, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

To test if your theory was right, we decided to go do a deeprun, without pve skills(including Cry of Pain and SY)and Shadow Form whatsoever. We used a spike consisting of FoC, Esurge and RoJ. And this is our result:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/g...uywd/gw427.jpg

I think almost everyone in that team took a screenshot if you want more proof.

I think this is kind of showing that Cry of Pain isnt really needed for a fast time.

Eh, I can't say much considering I've only done the deep a total of 3 times. The deep record is 14 minutes I believe? Noncryway I'm not sure - and ultimately the time differential between these three times decide whether or not cry is imba or if the underlying problem is simply how PvE functions. I'd like to see Urgoz done similar to the cryway time though. Cryways record is 23 in Urgoz HM (again correct me if I'm wrong) and noncryway is 32 I believe. I think that would ultimately decide how legitimate your claims are.

Congrats regardless, don't let me deter from your completion time.

kielus · Jan 17, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

On a perfect run at least a minute could be cut down ;p

Athrun Feya · Jan 17, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Eh, I can't say much considering I've only done the deep a total of 3 times. The deep record is 14 minutes I believe? Noncryway I'm not sure - and ultimately the time differential between these three times decide whether or not cry is imba or if the underlying problem is simply how PvE functions.

Actually, from what we saw, Cry of Pain is completely replacable. The time was slower for different factors, namely
- lack of other pve skills, "you move like a dwarf" for knockdown and "i am unstoppable"
- no perma means we can't use exactly the same tactics as the record in later rooms
- we haven't run this build as many times, on a perfect run we would save an extra 2 or 3 mins.

Balanced/physical teams are not as viable in the deep as other areas because of the rediculous quantities of blind. There has been a Steel Wall record with Searing Flames elementalists (23 minutes) but this was before the change to vipers defense. Post nerf, it took more in the region of 25-30minutes with the same build.

As for urgoz, we estimate our time would be much slower (perhaps around 30 minutes) but this is due to not being able to use Shadow Form (which we agree shouldn't have been maintainable in the first place). The "non-cryway" record for Urgoz is, in fact, held by LOD at 26 minutes, I believe.

lovingly death · Jan 18, 2009, 12:45 PM // 12:45

off topic^^

omg i just love this thread although the topic completely has shot past the posters
original intention i have had so much fun reading it.

back to abusing my pve skills and consets i love so much

keep up with the posts

Eragon Zarroc · Jan 19, 2009, 04:02 AM // 04:02

lol at save yourselves costing energy AND adrenaline. make it one or the other. if u make it only energy, u'll get energy management proffesions spamming the shit out of it. adrenal only shows the current results. decreasing the duration isn't very feasible because it is short enough as it is. so adding a recharge would be the way to go. make it 5-6 sec recharge without the energy req. OR, a reasonable solution would be to leave it the same and make an effect of it's usage be that it causes all adrenaline to be lost. kills D-Slash/save yourselves combo. having the armor depend on strength att. is also reasonable because 100 armor is quite a lot. but if u make the skill lose all adrenaline with usage, this change won't be req. because of the much more infrequent usage. idk why i'm discussing this becaus all i use is d-slash w/ save urselves =) but making it cost energy and adrenal will never happen. no skills with both costs exist in the game.